Second Republic — An Dara Poblacht

Greetings everyone, I performed a word search here and I found no mention of the word Sovereign. If one does not comprehend sovereignty first and foremost then you will never achieve freedom in any manner, not political , not financial not Lawful…. The Proclamation mentions sovereignty Three times for a very good reason …. Perhaps some research might assist you in this … http://www.billymcguire.com for example

Kind regards

Coming from Ireland and living in New York gives me a perspective on the current situation from both sides of the atlantic. In visits to Occupy Wall Street and conversations with Irish friends it seems to me that nobody has an clear idea of what could replace the current system. I put together a few ideas that could use technology to help make democracy more responsive and transparent. If you have the time please take a read and let me know if you find it interesting. I’ve been working in the web industry since the mid 90′s and a lot of ideas that seemed obvious to those of us in the early days are still yet to take hold. With the popularity and familiarity of facebook I think that most people are now comfortable enough to use similar systems for the democratic process.

A pdf is available here

http://bit.ly/A3430B

and if you have any comments, negative or positive please post them here or send them to opensourceeire@gmail.com

we are not obliged garret to pay any debt to europe and if you say we do proove it.

“Oh foolish man, what can you not be made to believe”. Why have you not decided on a foolproof proposal such as Direct Democracy? Why would you wish to change the Constitution with Reforms, is not our Constitution the issue for the EUSSR, wouldnt they love to get rid of it, hve you wondered why? why are political parties adopting policies advocating citizen involvement?
Wake up, you are either being duped, or are complicet to the agenda of getting the sheeple to vote for change which will ultimately seal the gates of the prison hell being created around them, and you. These elite which control all aspects of society, especially these people driven change forums, are laughing at how stupid people are in building their own prison. You are the Site agents for the constuction, who dont understand that the prision you build is for you too.

Refound the Republic? Great men died for its creation, there arent men of that stature here now, we might do well to think hard on what we have and understand how good it is, before we tear it apart, cos once its gone, it aint a comin back! Freedoms are easy forgone, unlikely to be got back in this tyranical society. Be warned!

Has anybody given any thought to Ireland coming out of the EU? It seems to me that the relationship between Ireland and Europe is akin to a marriage where the love between Mom and Dad has died but are staying together for the sake of the children. Except in this case the children are the wealthy bankers, bond gamblers social and political elites. Maybe instead of rolling over like a puppy waiting for our Euro masters to rub our bellys we should tell them either stop screwing us or we will pull the whole Euro Project down. I know this sounds extremely radical but maybe its time we desplayed some courage and true patriotism?

yes In my opinion we dont need europe we do most of our trading with the UK and the US. We should got back to the punt,however with out the usury.

I see some merit in your argument, especially since our relationship with the EU seems to deteriorate with each passing day (despite what the ‘official’ news reports would have us believe about our ‘reputation’ being restored). There is no sentiment in EU affairs, only cold calculated national and regional interests.
Unless we grow up and stand up for ourselves in Europe we will always be a seond-rate member of the club.

Patriotism is not what we would achieve in abandoning the Euro, it would be more akin to political oblivion. We have no viable exports and without a stable currency we would be unable to attract the foreign investment we need to become viable. Default, though wnticing, would be ruinous for Irish credit. So, I agree that we should stand up to the Euro, but abandoning it seems like an Ostrich style move to avoid our obligations.

Any report on last Sunday’s (17tth April) meeting?
or the meeting, with other groups, which took place the day before?

You may be interested in the Democratic Reform website,

Could we have a report on the number of hits on the website. The priority is to get that 1m signatures to the Petition and each supporter of the 2nd Republic Movement could help in the campaign to ensure that all of their email friends are made aware. I believe as we take every opportunity to engage our friends in discussion on the merits of our noble cause that the message will quickly filter to the grass roots and the responses will multiply. There is no gain without a little pain . So we need to push out the boat and ncourage all in our paths to come aboard and see.

I propose in the interests of Historical accuracy and respect for our ancestors that the title of this project be renamed to 7th Republic as we are currently living in the 6th Irish Republic and not the 1st.

The first was declared by Humbert in 1798
The second was declared by Emmet in 1803
The third was declared by Young Ireland in 1848
The fourth was declared by The Fenians in 1867
The fifth was declared by Pearse in 1916
The sixth was declared by the Oireachtas in 1948

Please people, if we don’t respect our history then what do we respect?

Many of us have had this discussion in late 2010 and I believe it was decided to stay with the original title, rather than call it Third Republic. Several of the dates you mention certainly did not result in an officially-recognised Republic. Therefore it would be fatuous to claim as such, as Ireland did not achieve independence prior to the C20th. It would disingenuous to attempt to claim otherwise.

Thanks, Seán. Arguably, a new republic would be the 8th – the first republic being the period of Cromwellian rule! There was a brief discussion on this question in our forum. It was though to generate more heat than light. http://url.ie/9dmw

Ireland doesn’t do radical, does it? I hope this anti-conservative project disproves this cynicism. The present finacial crisis is but a symptom of poilitical stagnation. The main radical proposal I feel which help our country to grow up politically is to play to the adage “All politics is local”; let’s make it local: create regional governments (do away with county councils) with full-time elected representatives with tax-raising powers. This will empower voters in local issues, and allow a national parliament to get on with national politics, not local potholes. This would require radical constitutional change. But Ireland doesn’t do radical, does it?

Hello
John from Conamara here.
This is my first post. I was not at the meeting due to weather. I hope the first 2nd-republic meeting I go to is in Galway.
A non-aligned campaign for political reform is a great idea as long as it stays focussed.I don’t see any other non-aligned group grasping the opportunity for political reform presented by the present crisis.
Until aims and objectives are agreed it would be dangerous to be interviewed by the media. Without agreed aims and objectives groups fade away or divide up and form new groups.
Now for some constructive criticism / suggestions.
I have to admit I have problems with a national assembly which is to be provided / facilitated by the same political system you want to reform. It could end up as just another quango with a fat admistration writing reports to government that are ignored as is the case for the Dáil Comittee for Parliamentary Reform not to mention the New Ireland Forum. State-funded is by definition not independent.
I don’t see why you could’t start the debate yourselves and become a pressure group from outside the political mainstream.

By the way we are already in the 2nd republic. The first Republic (which issued its own bonds) was presided over by the 1919 Dáil whose idealistic definition of a republic would make yours hairs stand up in the light of what happened to children, the aged and the helpless in Southern Ireland since then.
Beir bua.

I had a letter published in the Irish Times today 7th Dec.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2010/1207/1224284922588.html

John, I’ve posted your comment in the Forum page, (see tab at top of this page).

Oliver,

Has a decision been taken on running candidates or not running candidates for the Dail? I expressed the view that this is something I think we should consider but it was an issue on which there clearly were oppositie views on? I just think that if 2nd Republic had TDs in the Dail it would greatly facilitate the agenda we seek to pursue. Once the Government is elected, and likely with a massive majority, they will have little incentive to bring in radical reform that would fundamentally alter their own power bases and it will be very difficult to keep a large section of the population mobilised and engaged with 2nd Republic. It will also be very difficult to maintain media interest. Having TDs is a whole different story as access to the power structures and media greatly improves. Anyway whatever the consensus on this issue is I will of course row in behind it but it might be a good idea to clear the matter up once and for all reasonably soon.

If the government – who ever it is- has an overall majority they can and will ignore the independents.
That is one of the problems with the Dail that have to address. No individuals or group of less that 8(I think), have any say about the order of business. They have virtually no power.
That is part of the reason the Greens went into government: Gormley was frustrated sitting on the sidelines for 20 years completely powerless.

There is no point in getting only1-2 tds in there. If we were in a strong position and could use there would be some point .
But not at the moment.

Thanks Oliver for organising the meeting on Saturday it was very good to see so many people there.
Just a few thoughts from it. I had to leave before the end so appologies if these were done.

Firstly there was some discussion about where to go next. Taking the business theme which a few speakers mentioned perhaps something like a mission statement which businesses have. Two or three lines defining what the aims of the group are. I’d then include below it some bullet points in the form of questions such as,

Do we really need 166 TD s?
Do we need a Seanad?
If yes what should it do?
Should Budgets be dependent on potholes and casinos’ ?

I would suggest a research section for this site, links to the constitutions of other countries, how are constituancyies decided, alternative voting methods, citizens conventions from other countries. Maybe there is a similar source available elsewhere already. Give a resource to visitors to read up themselves, I know librarians involved in online libraries and methods of doing this. Maybe Wiki style where the resource could be populated by contributors. Let me know if you want me to do this.

Regards running candidates there seemed to be disagreement about it being done. My fear would be that firstly it would not be practical for the next election as it may well be very soon. Running candidates for the election after would be problematic, there will be a whole new set of crisis to deal with which would need policies making the chances of a split highter. Staying away from issues and sticking with the system would be my preference. But if the majority want candidates I would support that.

A problem with the pledge idea is that those who do sign up may not keep their promises. A solution to this would be to put pressure on them. This is where numbers are important email, visit and standing outside their offices/clinics. Some of the American lobby groups rate politicians as to how they perform. Maybe do something like that. We could learn from groups like the Tea Party in the US (by which I mean how they organise).

2nd Republic may sound threatening to some people. I would emphasise the model used in France which was mentioned at the meeting. Recreating, changing for modern times should be a feature of a Republic. The constitution was redical for its day, changes in communications mean that what was right then is not necessarily appropriated today. It is clearly not working now.

The programmer who was there sorry for not remembering his name said he could make an online vote system or petition which people could use sounds like a great idea to me. Use information technology as much as possible.

Thats all I can think of for now feedback wise thanks again.

Rob

Hi i am 22 and a post grad student in Waterford. I think the philosophy of movement like this is what this country needs. The governance system is a mess and always has been. We need changes and we need them now.

They have been playing poker with this country for far too long think it’s time start showing the people who put them there the cards.

Berties comments of “They never told me the bottom would fall out of the economy” was the just ridicules. Just explains what was going on the time of the so called “Celtic-Tiger” NOTHING. They did nothing to prepare the country for possible changes or did nothing to push more regulation in key areas like banking and the government itself.

I don’t vote because I don’t believe in the political system we have. I feel each party is as bad as the other and I have always said that they will just tell all the lies on the world to people and when they get in power they will just do their look after a few people that are close to them and completely change their mandate and their policies to look after their own skins.

The majority of TDs and politicians are for the most part ineffective and a major cost to the tax payer this needs to be addressed. Politicians get into power by telling their local constituencies what they will do for them instead of looking after the welfare and future of the country. This Idea of “what he or she can do for me” has to be stamped out.

This needs to be changed and wider focus of countries needs and issues need to be TD’s main focus with city and town lobby groups pressing government representatives for local issues.

Instead of politicians who are simply taking over for their father or keeping within the political norms of their family or friends, we should be pushing for the best and brightest in our society to be leading our society.

I do believe this is a commonly felt believe amongst the majority of people in Ireland but I do feel that Irish people feel there will be nothing done to change things, That is why I would like to give this movement my full support and hope that there is more to help push for the changes in this country after it has been destroyed by the people who we thought were leading us in the right direction

James
from tipp

The Irish Liberal Party could do with you as a member, don’t just use your vote to bring about change, talk everyone else you know into doing the same thing

You are absolutely right in all your angry comments.

But you MUST VOTE ! ! !
Vote independent ! or Spoil you vote in protest !

But if you don’t exercise your franchise you are letting them win by default.

There is a group starting soon in Munster,
“Watch this space”

Just a quick comment.

If I hear one more time how great our education system is or how well educated a people we are, I scream! If we were so educated and switched on we wouldn’t be in the mess we’re in! I won’t start making a list of our failures… you can all imagine them.
Reform or actually implement the revised 1999 curriculum which includes civics/Social Personal Health Education – unfortunately no philosophy on curriculum yet!

I am a primary school teacher by the way! Went about it the long way i.e. I had another few careers and lives before I went to work in class.

Before any change comes about, we must as a people change the way we think otherwise we are bound to make the same mistakes once again

Colm
Bruxelles, Belgique

The people must act with great urgency. A window of opportunity exists to get rid of the gombeen men for once and for all. Our children deserve no less. A new Constitution with a strong(with teeth) Public Ethics Code of conduct provision is essential.

The Republic is dead; long live the second republic.

This is all fine and well, but you are not going to have an impact on the next election. What you are proposing is going to take time. In the meantime, we believe that there is a way to take back the republic that we had – by preventing the political parties from carrying on business as usual, in whatever coalition they concoct in a back room somewhere.

We need a system change, not a regime change. But the only way we can do that RIGHT NOW is if everyone votes for Independent candidates, in the coming election, and those candidates then being the process of real change.

Please come to our meeting in the Central Hotel, Dublin, tomorrow night at 7.00pm.

Excellent meeting today in the Gresham. Well done to Oliver, Donal and Chris for chairing, facilitating and organising. Many many different views and ideas, which while challenging to channel into a general consensus must be seen as a very positive start. Looking forward to now seeing a clearer articulation of 2nd Republic objectives and priorities as well as a planned way forward in order to achieve them. As was discussed today it will be very important to get the organisation’s ‘governance’ structure defined and established fairly soon. This can of course evolve as 2nd Republic hopefully develops and grows but an interim structure will be required sooner rather than later.

What i’d really like to see is an end to RTE and the system of gombeen led media editorial. I think selling off RTE 2 will be the first start, but limiting the political influence on RTE1 should also be a priority to media reform. The obstruction of proactive debate has to stop, this apathathy inspiring entertainment style of debate goalless and pointless which is promoted by RTE has to stop!
We have to now try and restrict media interference ….free the media…. promote and encourage proper journalism …. lets get rid of RTE. All they have done is promoted the FF led government over the last 10 years and have to now admit their complicit involvement in this disaster.

Also a question about foundations:
I would like to see the promotion of Foundations, this is an entity that can operate as a business, such as Tyrens the civil engineering company in Sweden. the company cannot be sold, and cannot leave the country. is this a form we can apply to the privatisation of the ESB, RTE and Bord Gais?

Also congrats on your initiave, hope the meeting goes well for you tomorrow. I didn’t mean to put people off with my anti-RTE rant, looking forward to reading more stuff here.
Let me know if there any meeting planned closer to Limerick.

You need to get the item above of ASAP

hey there, I haven’t so much spoken to you on the blog in a while, but I guessed I should email you from my all new Netbook!! No fun, I work for a top company now in the revision dept. Do not tell everyone but we identified this site that is absolutely glitching and sending out complimentary Netbook!! to any person that signs up. I presume you might possibly have to confirm your email, xox Privat Livecam

Congratulations on your initiative.
The Irish Liberal Party fully supports the 2nd Republic initiative.
The principles of the party and the policies to be formulated based on these will lead to many of the reforms outlined as required.

see;
irishliberalparty.org

While I think that the 2nd republic/national convention is a fine idea, and is to be applauded, it may need to be a bit more specific in its aims. While the statement “only the people can give the answers” is great in theory, lets remember that the people gave their answers at the last 3 general elections, and I expect up to 20% of the people to give a similar answer (FF) at the next one, in spite of what’s happened.

Put crudely, the Irish electorate is quite unsophisticated, and tends to reward those who promise the best deal (even if widely unrealistic), and/or those who can do most at a local level (get Mary the job in the council or get Paddy the planning permission, or get the grant for the local GAA club, etc). Our current electoral system both encourages this sort of voter behaviour and encourages a certain type of person to enter politics (the Jackie Healy-Raes, Michael Lowrys, Willie O’Deas, Frank Faheys, etc). It also has the effect of discouraging the more idealistic people from entering politics as most of them can’t handle the prospect of the parish pump politics & horse-trading that is needed to get elected and keep your seat in our multi-seat constituencies.
A significant portion of the Irish electorate also support their party like they would their favourite football team (The 20% voting FF in the next election is equivalent to me still supporting Liverpool even though they’re sh*te).
To get to the point – we need serious electoral reform before anything else – a form of the list system would be a start, but there are numerous european countries, as other contributors have pointed out, that have electoral systems that we can learn from. Electoral reform would produce better politicians for a start, and provide the basis for all of the other reforms that this country needs.

dear writers looking at your stated aims makes me ask why have you not included the secrete society address black hall pl dublin the only one party system in ireland a system independant as gods not on in any new republic for this reason the nod and wink and union by all its members in its workings with supreme dictate a wrong in any republic let alone the 1937 one written by them for self
stop the evil little devils as they call themselves honourable

@Glenn Cahill
Nor am I a constitutional lawyer:-)

I suspect you know that the provisions of Article 27 has never been used since our 1937 constitution came into force as far as I know.

Art 27.1 is quite explicit that
a) it can only apply to ordinary legislation, but not to bills to amend the constitution;
b) the petition must come from members of the Oireachtas.

“Article 27
This Article applies to any Bill, other than a Bill expressed to be a Bill containing a proposal for the amendment of this Constitution, which shall have been deemed, by virtue of Article 23 hereof, to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas.
1. A majority of the members of Seanad Éireann and not less than one-third of the members of Dáil Éireann may by a joint petition addressed to the President by them under this Article request the President to decline to sign and promulgate as a law any Bill to which this article applies on the ground that the Bill contains a proposal of such national importance that the will of the people thereon ought to be ascertained.”

So, it is NOT a citizens’ initiative.

The full text of the Constitution is available on-line here
http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/Pdf%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland.pdf

All that said, I cannot think of any reason that would stop people addressing a petition directly to the President. What she would or could do in response may be very limited.

While all this is being done, the State/Exchequer could conceivably run out of money.

IMO, the institutions of the state are already destabilised by virtue of everything that has led to the EU-ECB-IMF application and programme.

We do not need any further opportunities to start the work of developing, designing, considering and implementing the steps to recreate our state institutions. We can do a lot within the existing constitution and need to amend those articles of the constitution that specify our way of governing ourselves. Both require sustained effort, as we continue to work out way through this crisis.

I propose that we call for a referendum on the IMF loan as a starting point for change. It clear that the IMF Bailout does not represent the will of the people, and we can appeal to the President to refuse to sign the Bill. I believe that this would be a spark for the change we desire. The Constitution states:

Article 27.5.1°
In every case in which the President decides that a Bill the subject of a petition under this Article contains a proposal of such national importance that the will of the people thereon ought to be ascertained, he shall … decline to sign and promulgate such Bill as a law unless and until the proposal shall have been approved either i) by the people at a Referendum.

I’m not a Constitutional lawyer, but this seems to me to be the best route to reform. Rejecting the IMF deal would destabilise the institutions of state and provide an opportunity to recreate them.

One thought I would have on Seanad reform would be based on the US model, whereby each county would elect two senators based on universal suffrage, ensuring that small counties like Carlow and Leitrim would always have Oireachtas representation. Also, rather than the highly centralised model where local government is neutered, four regional parliaments would serve Dublin, Munster, Leinster and Connacht-Ulster, the number can be adjusted to suit preferences, but these bodies would collect local taxes and control most powers bar defence, justice, foreign affairs and social welfare. Finally, Irish citizens should not be disenfranchised for living abroad, unlike French and American voters, and the President should perhaps just serve a single seven-year term, or two five-year mandates.

now that the famous pillars of society are shown to be corrupt ie politics religion, the legal profession, the police. the medical profession. the developers. banks et all and were all supposed to be enslaved to bond holders goldman sachs its like old times. the land of saints and scholars. ireland is heading into the teenage years, all part of growing up no more santa claus. 200 or 300 enlightened souls on the road to the 2nd republic will lift the wheel out of the rut.

Since 1932, Fianna Fail have ruled us for all but 16 years. We have been dominated by them and tgheir thinking. They were (how glorious to use the past tense there) a political monarchy. Haven’t read through all the comments here yet, but in light of the state’s near collapse it is definately time to re-examine the constitution. Long overdue in any scenario surely. Good show.

I suggest that this effort be focused exclusively on those articles of our Constitution which specify our way of governing ourselves in order to bring checks and balances which limit the scope for excess by the powerful – public and private, elected and appointed – so that our government is competent and moderate.

I put it that we need to design, built and operate new mechanisms of government. This means focusing on those articles of the Constitution which specify these mechanisms and on those alone!

IMO a constitution is a simple frame of free government, in which the scope for the exercise of power in whimsical and arbitrary ways is limited. Or as Madison put it “In framing a government which is to be administered by me over men, the great difficulty lies in this; You must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place, oblige it to control itself”

In challenging the existing mechanisms by which our power is limited, restrained and exercised through the political processes we have developed and used, we should also note Machiavelli’s observation
” There is nothing difficult to take in hand or more uncertain of success than to take a lead in the introduction of a new order to things, because the innovation has for its enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions and lukewarm defenders those may do well under the new”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101126/ap_on_re_eu/eu_iceland_election
this item on Iceland may be of interest

This is a very interesting forum, and your ideals are noble ones.
I am a protestant living in Ulster, and though I have lived and worked in Dublin I cannot count myself as anything like a citizen of the current Eire or declared a permanent immersion in it’s culture – which is very different from the patisan North where I originate.

Perhaps Eire is in such a state at the moment because the culture of your independence is based on the government (and particularly the leader) having too much power at the expense of the electorate, and democratic principles in general.

When outsiders look at your politics, they see a central figure like Haughey or Reynolds, Fitzgerald or Ahern – not a party. The parties themselves seem to offer only a marginal difference in policies, and personality plays a pivotal role at national elections… in a sort of ‘he’s the boy for us’ kind of way. It feels more like a town ballot than a countrywide election.

Develera is the principal agent of Ireland’s apparent failure to exercise personal politics, state politics and statesman like behaviour. By exercising crude religious and social engineering, big D took the power from the hands of the people he was supposed to be training to use it and patronised them instead.

Perhaps the current republic is simply too young to have evolved credible alternatives and this could be a defining moment, if the chance is taken. If the English had never left, and instead relented to a return of home rule in Dublin, then what you have got right now, is what it would look like. Power in the hands of the preferred few and rotten with corruption. It’s nothing new – this was a trademark of devolved power in the Europe of Rome’s Western Empire.

The original Anglo-Irish – those that Yates referred to as “one of the great peoples of Europe” are all but gone. Some were good, some were bad, but I wonder if the Irish really look up to the meritocracy inherent of the current republic. Does the creation of, for example, a nominal presidency in a country with 2000 years of indigenous kingship actually incline a sense of loyalty and belonging – something worth participating in?

RIP Erskine Childers.

@James
“Perhaps Eire is in such a state at the moment because the culture of your independence is based on the government (and particularly the leader) having too much power at the expense of the electorate, and democratic principles in general…..y exercising crude religious and social engineering, big D took the power from the hands of the people he was supposed to be training to use it and patronised them instead. ….Perhaps the current republic is simply too young to have evolved credible alternatives ”

What would “credible alternatives” look like?

While I accept that every political entity has its own history and culture, can you point to entities that could at least inspire us, even if we know that we cannot copy them?

Can you suggest mechanisms that would “actually incline a sense of loyalty and belonging – something worth participating in?”

The page for a Second Irish republic is:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/pages/A-Second-Republic-for-Ireland/130260690363677?v=info

Excellent work. I’m striving to wave the reform flag for Ireland on Facebook as well. It’s all about building a coalition of the many for a single purpose of constituional reform. All the best with your efforts.

Hello and thanks,
there is no way we can proceed as a society if we still think in terms of Fianna Fail/ Fine Gael/ Labour Party/ Sinn fein or any combinations thereof.
You should initiate a campaign of Abstention other than a single vote (with no transfers), for Conscientious Independents, or anybody with no traditional party label and who has never been nominated by any of them in the past; this way we can avoid the frustration of doing nothing at such a momentous period in our history but at the same time not allowing ourselves to be beguiled by fraudulent rhetoric. that is precicely what calling for an election amounts to.
We should also form a Commitee of One Hundred to function Pro Tem and be divided into Ten sections covering all conventional aspects of government. An audit of all supporters should be conducted and form a Technocratic Skills pool.
We should then strive for a Dual Power situation and counter-point everything that emerges from the current parties. We should nominate or designate a revolving Executive Council from our Pro Tem Commitee.

I like this idea of a 2nd republic & many of the ideas expressed here. If we allow any of the existing Political Parties to form a government in an upcoming election, little will change & that’s just not acceptable to me & I believe many in this country now.

Count me in.

Yes to a Second Republic. Eh, how…?

Meanwhile, even before the proposed Dec 4th meeting, why not Get Up, Stand Up and come to the ICTU march in Dublin on Saturday, Nov. 27th. Meeting 12pm Wood Quay; heading to GPO. Even if you’re not a Trade Unionist, come on!

People forget that the Tricolour represents Peace between Orange and Green.
I don’t know any good reason to change it.

Sorry, this post was in response to Kevin O’Donnell’s suggestion of a new flag.

http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/imported/meps-look-to-make-it-easier-to-launch-citizens-initiatives/69310.aspx
The above link may be of interest in view of what we are trying to do here in Ireland

Hi Oliver, you know there hasn’t been a day go by in the past 36 years that I didn’t thank my parents for making the decision to leave Ireland in 1974. Times were very tough and there was little in the way of opportunity (or hope) for the young irish man or woman to look forward to. I’ve been back a couple of times in the interim and on the last occasion (2006) remarked to some relatives that the Celtic Tiger couldn’t last forever and that at some time the bubble had to burst (especially with the house prices…which simply obscene). Though no one was complaining then…times were good and everyone seemed happy that their former corporation house was now worth half a millions euros and what really struck me was that no one, absolutely no one seemed to care how much their kids would have to pay for a house of their own in Ireland in the years to come. This disaster really is of your people’s making…they voted the morons into government, for several terms I believe, didn’t they? Do you really think these selfish sheep (this majority) can be persuaded to admit they got it horribly wrong..and change not just your Government but the manner in which the country is governed? I truly wish you well in your endeavour, it would be the stuff of O’Connell and Parnell but let me give you the heads up now, leave the dumb ones to their fate and get your backside and those of your loved ones on another 747 without delay. We still have plenty of room for the brightest of “the ol sod”.

Oliver well done for starting this. I agree with the points above about going to the media, but I would gather more support on line first. If we can get thousands of people signed up to 2nd Republic Facebook page then it will give a good platform on which to approach the media.

I also think you should include a tab for donations on this website in order to start a slush fund to support the movement – but this will have to be handled properly. e.g register the organisation, set up a separate bank account or possibly get a sympathetic solicitor on board to use their client account.

I’m happy to give any help you need and I’ve done similar campaigns to this before, so please email or call me (number of my website) if you need any advice.

Simon.

The correct / international name for Ireland is the “Republic of Ireland” as Gaelige – Poblacht na hÉireann.
Éire, along with the Celtic Tiger were phrases coined by the media.
The Irish tricolour is green, white and orange, not green, white and gold. Just in case you pick up arms against an imaginery state and are thinking of changing the flag as part of your restructuring plan.

Dear Willie,

Article 4 of the constitution relates to the names of our country.

‘Article 4
The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.’

I believe Éire derives from the mythical three queens of Ireland Banbha, Éiru and Fodladh.

Recently there have been calls for a new flag – one mentioned is the flag of St Patrick which would work well in the north and south.

A new beginning sounds like a dream, especially now that we are where we are!Would it be possible to have a greatly reduced number of TD’s elected by the entire population, and also ministers selected by the voters? Candidates could then be elected on their merits, not on what local favours they might bestow?
Additionally, high pay to attract the best people, however with most of it based on performance.
Abolish County Councils or certainly amalgamate many of them – remove zoning powers from councillors?
Make it a serious offence for a politician to become involved in individual representations for example in the application for a medical card, planning matters, etc? instead provide citizens advice offices counters in post offices to advise people on entitlements?

A much reduced national assembly elected by the entire population divided by employment / occupation / interest groups.
A separate legislature and executive.
The executive partly appointed from skilled/qualified experts – not elected.

But we have to maintain a re-organised reconstituted Local Authority system, with more responsibility and adequate resources.

It’s great to see the level of interest here. I think the public debate is going to move sharply over the next few days though.

The scale of the debt repayments which would apply under this bailout is becoming clear. To be honest, I can see people becoming far more frightened over the next few days. It will probably make it more clear than ever that real reform is needed, but I doubt that most people will be able to focus on what form a 2nd Republic will take until the immediate crisis is dealt with.

If our current government succeed in selling us down the river, as they seem determined to do, then this country will become a wasteland no matter what kind of consitutional regime prevails. Quite simply, we will be on the hook for a debt which we will never be able to pay back, at least not in any of our lifetimes.

Just to reiterate, if anything, the next few days are going to illustrate that we are in a crisis which is greater and deeper than most people feared, and that we simply have to draw a line under the 1st Irish Republic 1949-2010. It’s time to start over.

Hi all,

Fair play to everyone involved in this. It’s definitely about time the political system had a major root and branch overhaul. For a country the size of Ireland, we simply don’t need that many national representatives. Stronger local representation would be welcome. A system whereby each constituency is adequately represented whilst also allowing the government of the day to appoint experts in their field to senior government positions might actually lead to people who know what they’re doing being left in charge of vitally important departments. I have a strong suspicion that the senior civil servants of each department regularly cod their respective ministers simply because the ministers have no expertise. While I’ve lost all respect for all political parties I think they might be a necessary burden simply because they have the infrastructure. That’s not to say we couldn’t kick out all current incumbents and replace them with more energetic and genuinely public service minded members of the same parties(with the obvious exception of Fianna Fail). There are so many anomalies in the system it’s hard to begin. I mean, what exactly is the President there for? It’s like we wanted a monarch but didn’t have one so we simply created an almost identical ceremonial role. As regards to the ICTU march on Saturday, I am not affiliated with any trade union and to be honest, don’t hold them in much regard, and I was just wondering if there will be many other non-aligned marching on Saturday simply an election and an overhaul in general? If anyone is planning on forming such a group to maybe tag along I’d be very interested to know any details. I think it’s our best chance to get out on the streets in serious numbers and demand reform. I think a cornerstone of the new republic should be equality, freedom and fraternity. Tired and stained though that cliche may be, I still think the ideal of it should be the cornerstone of any fledling democracy.

Hi,
this seems a great idea!

For what it’s worth my initial ideas would be -

be prepared to quickly diassociate yourselves with existing political movements/parties, as once something gains momentum sure as anything politicians will try to move on to your ground, especially as their existing positions are so discredited.

personally I think one of the main reasons we are where we are is too much emulation of the anglo saxon political and economic models (UK, US…) low tax, property bubble, personality politics etc. It is worth seriously looking at the French, German and Scandinavian electoral, economic and social systems, which are more socially cohesive, are more succesful over the long-term, and in fact with which Ireland should have a better “cultural fit”.

The vast majority of the electorate don’t know any different to what they have grown up with i.e. the 3 main parties, so it is important to help them understand other possible alternatives, in terms of systems, because the danger is in a crisis, as always, people going to one extreme or another , left or right, in a vacuum. The European Union could help a lot with this.

Would also suggest actually making contact with some “peoples” groups from Iceland – what could they tell us? what can we learn from them? what was their experience?

Also , I think the presidents office should be a good place to start as it is seen as above politics and is generally respected. Maybe the Constitution or even the Proclamation? as a kind of “spiritual” guide about what Ireland should be, but without opening any pandoras boxes!

by the way, I am not an expert in any of these areas but these are just my thoughts.

“Maybe the Constitution . . .” On the contrary. One of the first tasks of the 2nd Republic has to be a constitutional convention to draw up a new – simpler one based on popular demands. As somebody pointed out elsewhere our current constitutionwas written by deValera 50 -60 years ago. With some undesireable ammendments . . but thats a debate for the new convention.

I agree. What I was trying to get at is that if we are talking about big change it can be difficult to convince people as they tend to cling to what they know, or the past or whatever, particulary in times of insecurity.

So what I was trying to express is that the people would need to see that part of the change is in fact going back to some “ideals” or “principles” that are held in esteem by “all”, whether they are embodied by the current consititution or something else is not that important.

Great idea, I’m a student and the first thing I do if I’m not sure how to do something is ask the smartest guy/girl in the class how to go about it. Copying is justified if they have nothing to lose and you benefit. i’m sure the Nordic countries would be more than happy to give us a lesson in proper governance.

Thanks. This is not about “copying”, it’s about “learning” from others experience, and then adapting it to what is appropriate for Ireland.

Copying is about taking short cuts, a bit like the current and past politicians who copied the “inflate property bubble, we have had never had it so good” formula as seen in UK, USA and elsewhere.

Hopefully as a student you want to be a learner and not a copyer

Hi everyone,

congrats to Oliver for setting this up and making a stand. It about time that we took the road less travelled and attained a genuine republic. This is achieveable and I believe is in the hearts of many. If this crisis has any silver lining, it’s the coming out of the woods of so many in Ireland who want change after having been shafted for decades by church, state, banks and homebred snakes.

A time of crisis is a time of opportunity. Let’s take it. There’s enough like minded people to shift the Irish paradigm and change the system, so we can establish a real repubiic in place of the present puppet theatre.

es

Hi There. This is my first time posting and I am delighted and encouraged by the response to this initiative. It is very very encouraging to see that so many people are concerned and realise that the current system badly needs to be challenged and changed. I am in Cork and would be more then prepared to be involved here. However, change is very difficult to achieve and could take years during which time we will be still governed by the same mindset that has us in the situation we are currently in. Surly they are a number of campaigns that could be quickly organised and presented to the parties and TDs to response to before the new election gets underway.

Hello again, had a bit of trouble setting myself up but am here now. I look forward to our opening meetings. Not being frivilous now but on the subject of getting the name of the group out there and its message – how about T-shirts? Also we would need to form a policy or viewpoint on the impending election and what way we would actually associate ourselves with it – would we encourage people NOT to vote for certain groups – I am minded of this by Mr. O’Toole in the Times today imploring those of Donegal South-west not to vote for Fianna Fail at all. Now wouldn’t that be sweet.

Serious fair play Oliver. People are dying to find something to latch on to the air their anger and frustration and then start some change.

Firstly, thank you Oliver, there can be no momentum without a starting point.

The anxiety to get things going as quickly as possible is completely understandable but is a trap we must not get caught in. To present a set of ideas quickly cobbled together into the public domain has real potential to undermine/discredit the forwarding of an alternative at the first hurdle. Indeed it may be in the best interests of change to let the political tag team run through another cycle letting the ‘opposition’ destroy any creditability it claims to have. The anger and dismay sweeping the country hasn’t, I suspect, reached it’s peak, that will happen as the on going cut’s bite deeper and deeper into society over the next year or two.

The time we have can be used to construct a credible vision of the way forward, one that will withstand scrutiny and attack from the established political machine backed heavily by corporate/private interests.

The challenge is as epic as you can imagine, every facet of the state has to be picked apart, re-imagined and put back together as a cohesive package. The influence of economic policy on education, politics, health and social morality must be properly understood to insure it serves the country and the people as opposed to the people and the country serving it. This will have to be done against the back drop of viscous opposition from the international corporate class. All of this can only be achieved with intelligent, rational and deliberated thinking and debate, knee jerk reactions will only be counter productive.

Change is inevitable, politics, as with everything else on our planet has to adapt to the realities on the ground or become extinct. Our job, as a population living in a democracy, is to insure that the extinction of the established system doesn’t leave a vacuum to be filled by dead end extremist ideologies. This is something we can, and must do, indeed it’s something we are doing.

I am in agreement with Daniel O’Connell about the need for a considered and co-ordinated action over a sustained period. There is a natural tendency to require rapid response to the failing system of governance, but maturing stages of democratic republics are usually slow burners involving many interactive threads. The evident expression of desire for change will be picked up by current vested interests and ‘bandwaggoning’ will ensue in an effort to retain power positions. The developing political situation should be allowed to run its course while the strategy for the 2nd republic is synthesised and prepared for launch when ready. Encouragement to all involved in this early stage.

Comghairdeas a chairde, on the website and getting the discussion going.

There are 1000s who want to act and participate in real change in this country rather than sit on their behinds watching the Apprentice and X factor or posting useless fact on their facebook profiles.

Other very recently formed albeit small platforms include Fiannadownfall and fianna_failedme . Both are on facebook and twitter and looking for a change with similar aims to a 2nd Republic. I wante dto attend the recent Claiming our Future event but I was away and I havent heard anything on it all in recent weeks.

I agree with other commentators that we need to act fast and gather momentum. I think that peaceful protest has to play to part and in the absence of anything else sooner, perhaps we could join the silent protest on Thursday or the ICTU March this Saturday as a group with 2nd republic banners and posters ? I am not a union member by the way or active member of any potitical party. ?

I look forward to following progress

Dave Dodd

Well done to Oliver on setting up this forum. Things are moving so fast now that the only people a January election will suit are the existing political parties. I believe in what is trying to be done in this forum. I believe we need change at all levels be that constitutional, political or local government. I believe the only way we can effect change is from within. In other words we need to get together, form a political group with the overall goal of achieving these reforms and we need to get into Leinster house. If we stay outside the political system, flawed and all as it is, we will forever be protestors looking through the railings. We can be a pain in the governments side here but without getting into the dail and replacing these fools we call TDs we will be forever frustrated onlookers.

Lads let’s keep the ideas flowing, get some consensus and stand up and be counted. This is our country. It’s time we took it back. Because only then can we fufil all of the noble aspirations we are espousing here!!!

Garvan Barry.

Hi All,Glad to see that there is a something happeing out there , but we need to come togeter and grow our numbers fast . We are at a pivitotal point in our history and we must not miss this opportunity to mobilise what is growing constituency of the politically dissafected , its now or never folks !Is ther any plans for rally with guest speakers etc etc

Glad to be with my fellow countrymen and women on this one.
The Irish Republic (don’t you just hate it when people in the UK say ‘Southern Ireland’: Southern Ireland is Cork and Waterford..) was founded in a time and mentality of war, both external and civil and many of its articles are outdated. The document itself has many redeeming features, not least the one that requires a referendum to change anything. Our cousins here in the UK where I live should be so lucky. Many years ago we shrugged off the claim to the North when we knew that it was essential to do so, ditto the X Case articles on freedom of information & travel. But, essentially, it is a hindrance to the development of a New Ireland: the enshrinement of the Church has gone, pretty much, in reality and needs to have the same happen on the statute books. Also many of the other clauses and codicils. So, in the French sense, a Second Republic isn’t far-fetched at all. It must start with Constitutional Reform, then Electoral. And it must be an open debate, separated from the “Whose side your Grandad fought on in the Civil war” that currently divides the two Centre-Right parties who have run this country for a couple of generations.
Here’s an idea, and one, I must admit, that I’m not advocating or that I’ve thought through enough, but what if we follow the Americans and put the power in the hands of the President rather than the Taoiseach? Would that work? Could that work? I’m not advising it, it’s merely another thought as, if there is to be a Second Republic and a New Ireland, then no idea (short of Fascism, and the Shinners may try that yet) can be off the table.
I’d like to hear all your thoughts..

Well done for starting this initiative.
Judging by comments already posted, there are diverse opinions out there but apparently with one common thread. That is that our current form of government has failed miserably. In my opinion, one of the many issues is how to separate national from local politics. At national level, government must govern for the common good. Is a ‘List’ system the answer? Perhaps. But not without the elimination of the Seanad, reduction in the number of TDs and a total reorganisation of Local government.
The challenge for such a movement as 2ndRepublic, as stated by other contributors, is how to gain the critical mass, ie of participants, contributors and supporters. I think establishing a political party may not be the best way to approach this. Issues such as ‘branding’ and use of technology as previously suggested are valid, however, they have to be used cautiously as there is a great risk of them being hijacked.
It is interesting to look to our current Constitution, particularly Article 45 iii and iv. It reads:
“45.2 iii The State shall, in particular, direct its policy towards securing:
That, especially, the operation of free competition shall not be allowed so to develop as to result in the concentration of the ownership or control of essential commodities in a few individuals to the common detriment.
Article 45.2.iv That in what pertains to the control of credit the constant and predominant aim shall be the welfare of the people as a whole.” Surely our current and past governments have not been true to the Constitution and indeed NAMA and the impending IMF/ECB intervention arguably conflict with Article 45 as they are most certainly not in the interest of the ‘people as a whole’.
I wish this initiative well and hope it gains sufficient momentum to make a difference…………….count me in!

Hi all! I really suggest that, if possible, you all watch The Frontline on RTE Player if you did not see it on Monday night. I feel we really need to let as many people as possible know about 2nd-Republic as soon as possible. The Country is crying out for change. Perhaps emailing our local Radio Stations giving the basic details and the web address for anyone interested??? Any Ideas???

Hi all,

I support Oliver. I too made a call for a new political system in the Irish Times several weeks ago. Things are moving so fast now it’s hard to see how this can be achieved in a short space of time. I support Oliver in this and wish him and us all good luck. There is a huge opportunity here and possibly a tipping point.

I think we need to change so many things that a new republic might be just the ticket. Unfortunately you need to change it from within itself as this is the only source of legitimacy there is… so effectively you have to win a majority in the Dail, then change the constitution to make it really take effect. Not impossible… but darn difficult without a whole country behind you.

For my two cents national politics should be about national issues. We don’t need 166 (plus the seanad of 60) to look after that. Local politics should be taken care of by local councillors. Reform the Dail to actually scrutinise the government and reform the government to actually have skilled and qualified people there – like the US secretary of state system. Can you imagine how the outcomes might have been different if David McWilliams were minister for finance not Brian Lenihan two years ago for the bank guarantee?

Kevin

Well done! however I do not think that “a movement for political reform” will work quickly enough given our current situation. Now that we know that there will be a general election early next year, the time for you to act is now. You need to establish a new political party now, with candidates in all constituencies to get a significant number elected or even better a majority in the Dail. Then you can legislate for constitutional and political change.I believe that almost anyone setting up a new political party now , provided that it has a great leader, who can speak publicly, eloquently, sensibly, honestly and simply at hopefully “monster meetings”would command huge support.The simple fact is that few people think that the opposition in this country will do much better than the present lot and none is interested in political reformat a fundamental level-abolising the Seanad is not fundamental reform.

This campaign is a great idea and a much needed initiative. I have been searching for a way to help drive change in our political system, as I am convinced this is an absolute requirement for progress.
There are many excellent ideas out there on the types of change required. Perhaps this site / campaign could be a way to distill these ideas into a single coherent set of proposals. These proposals could then be the presented to the political parties and individual TDs for discussion and (hopefully) commitment.

Direct action in the form of public meetings at venues around the country would be a good way build support and generate publicity. Prominent people who have
a known interest in political reform could be invited to address these public meetings and engage in discussions. Some possible names;
Fintan O’Toole, Noel Whelan, Stephen Collins, (Irish Times)
Richard Bruton, John McGuinness, Lucinda Creighton (TDs)

I have been reading a lot of “lists” of possible political reforms recently;

Fintan O’Toole (Enough is Enough) 50 proposals,
Fine Gael (Reinventing Government) 112 proposals !!
Noel Whelan (McGill Summer School) 8 proposals

I belive it is vital to try to collate (and maybe prioritise) these proposals into
a usefull program for action. Anybody got any good ideas on how to go about this task ?.

I am glad that Oliver started this up for more than one reason – it will give me a bit more impetus to kickstart something which I began a few months back, but could never get built the way I wanted it to. (Will send this on the list presently).

It’s a pretty simple idea – why don’t we crowdsource the republic? The wiki reminded me of it, but it will need a voting system. What I had in mind was starting with the Proclamation of 1916, highlighting the passages most open to interpretation, and allowing users to comment on each one, with their own suggestions, and voting on each entry. Best rises to the top naturally.

For example, what does the guarantee of ‘civil liberty’ mean in this day and age? Surely that extends to same-sex marriage? Does it mean legalisation of drugs? What about licensing laws?

But I think that these are conversations that we must have, publicly, and the whole nation must take part. It’s pretty obvious that the current government won’t start this debate, and I hold out very little hope that the next will either, at least not in a meaningful way.

Hence, as regards a program for action, I suggest that we get as many people involved as soon as possible, using every means necessary. I also suggest that we think of building some form of online forum where we can begin discussing the alternative reform possibilities. As was mentioned above, we will need a critical online mass before doing a public meeting.

We will need people with media, PR and IT expertise to help us get the message of reform out there. But most of all, we need the people to believe.

Sign me up

http://sustainableireland.blogspot.com/2010/10/relevant-aspects-of-national.html
http://sustainableireland.blogspot.com/2010/11/poblacht-na-imf.html

It seems to me that an idea that should be looked at soon in terms of how to begin political action for change would be a branding; like the Green Revolution in Iran last year. Something that unites the cause under a single non-partisan heading. Any creative types out there want to consult on this?

How about political reform in the manner of abolishing political parties and that all political representatives are independents, stringently audited. That would wipe out a lot of the rubbish

First of all, well done Oliver on this initiative. It is lamentable that not one of the mainstream parties has had to courage to advocate real and meaningful reform of our political structures (FG has made some modest proposals).

Education should be one of the key planks of reform in this country. We ought to encourage people to think for themselves and not to be led as has been the case for so long. An emphasis on a rounded education that includes a proper Civics curriculum would be a start, but we also must address the fact that our exam system rewards the ability to regurgitate information without any real knowledge or appreciation of a subject. We do not always send our brightest and best to university, the intake is mostly comprised of the children of the middle-classes, some of whom are practically pulled up by their bootstraps through grind schools.

A true republic should be one where everyone has a stake in society. I’m glad that this site is not simply designed as a forum for debating the type of parliamentary system we should have, but one about the type of society in which we want to live.

I totally agree. As someone who works in the education system, and feels nauseous every time I hear reference to our ‘well educated workforce’, I think we will continue to be ruled by some form of mediocracy while our education system, particularly at second level, continues to encourage and reward mediocrity.

Hi all, may I add my congratulations to Oliver and begin by saying, this has the potential to be great.
I would like to support the general aims of this campaign and I agree wholeheartedly with the desire to see a reimagining of the way our republic should work. Clearly, the pot hole filling, funeral attending, self serving system of cronyism that has masqueraded as politics here has been terminally exposed.
There will be many groups scrambling to fill that void, and it is potentially a dangerous time. But it is also opportunity for right minded citizens to offer a clear vision. I believe that this has to happen at a constitutional level.
It is very important that, after a short period of wide consultation, this vision for the future is communicated effectively. We must be prepared for this vision to be pilloried, opposed and ridiculed but it is up to us to make sure that it is comprehensive and worthwhile.
I would commend Stephen Joyce’s practical suggestions as a way to progress with the consultation. However, so much work needs to be done beforehand to coordinate the process. It is a huge and potentially thankless task, but has to be done.

enjoying reading everyones comments. I concur that any movement/forum for real political reform needs to be

1. inclusive embracing what different groups have in common etc
2. task orientated i.e s series of goals objectives etc that are time limited and realistic

Things like;

approaching a programme like frontline to host a debate on political reform,
agree as a nascent group on forms of protest/peaceful agitation for change like letters, like lobbying those with power. mass signed e-mails like amnesty recently co-ordinated on funding cuts to mental health.

The imf are here thank god as people are now making fiscal decisions objectively without recourse to parish pump politics.

This forum and others could help drive meaningful political reform so a situation where our elected officials actually are qualified to do their jobs and are incentivized to act in the national interest

I agree with your sentiments Maeve but if you thought Jackie Healy Ray was bad, he’s St Francis of Assisi compared to the IMF. These guys are the Repo men of international finance and their programme has nothing to do with “growth” or anything else, its about getting investors money out of Ireland by hook or by crook.

They’ve sunk dozens of 3rd world countries into perpetual debt cycles, caused chaos and worsened living standads in Eastern Europe with economic “shock therapy” in the early ’90′s… the list is a long one.

Its true that the Icelandics managed to get a reasonably good deal from them in 2008 but unfortunately our hopelessly idiotic “mandarins” were ready to offer up our first-born children for a few bob…and that’s pretty much what they did.

If this deal isn’t rejected or re-negotiated the price extracted from us will be very high…

I too want to congratulate Oliver Moran, both on his excellent letter to the Irish Times and on his initiative in stimulating this discussion forum. I agree with many of the sentiments expressed above. I believe that the intervention of the IMF, while being a damning indictment of the way we have conducted our affairs over the past no. of years, nevertheless gives us an opportunity to consider where we want to go as a country, what it means to be Irish, whether we want to emerge from the ashes of this disaster with a clearer understanding of what values we espouse, of what form of ethical, business and political leadership we desire. Like other contributors, I believe that there is a growing consensus that we as a nation can grow from this if we take time to reflect and discuss, in order to arrive at a set of guiding principles which will govern our politics, business and society into the future.
I agree also that we must join with other groups who are also trying to harness the energy for change and looking at the website of claimingourfuture.ie I believe that there is more that we can achieve together than separately. Over the past ten years or so I have attended the annual Céifin Conference in Ennis, which has tried to address the issues of ethical leadership, the importance of community and the consequences for us as a society of the headlong rush towards a shallow materialism. A constant theme at the conference has been the need for values led change and dire warning about where we were headed on the back of the Celtic Tiger. Papers delivered at the conference over the years can be accessed through the website, http://www.ceifin.com
Count me in!
Jim Cooney

Firstly to acknowledge I am Oliver’s sister but the first I heard of the 2nd Republic was on facebook on Friday. I am absolutely enthused to read the sentiments above and like so many believe it is high time the energy and frustration behind these sentiments were put to positive effect to bring about urgently needed change. Let’s hear the voice of the ordinary man and woman on the street who can’t be heard above the back slapping of the politicians, the tut-tutting of the IMF and the chi-ching of bankers, literally laughing all the way to the bank. One little concern though … when I read the real names of real people I find once again they are the voice mainly of men, middle class, well educated men, and that’s great don’t get me wrong. But we’ve had that – from Church to State and everywhere in between. Come on mna na heireann, cradle rocking ended with Mary Robinson, there’s a system needing rocking now! And it’s not only women that need their voice heard, but all those on the edges of the system, the early school leavers, the ‘new Irish’, the inarticulate but with a real message. I teach in an area of Dublin where we still have less than 30% going on to any kind of third level education and who believe themselves so far removed from the seat of power that they have effectively disengaged from main stream society. If this movement offers anything it can only be in its largesse, its openness, its creativity and non-judgemental approach. Once we start knocking the efforts of others to bring about change we are in a power struggle and the seeking after power is what has brought us here today.

Well said Aine,

I’m gonna reiterate that because most people scan thru these long lists of comments: T H E S E E K I N G A F T E R P O W E R I S W H A T
B R O U G H T U S H E R E T O D A Y

We need a broad-based organisation that brings people together and keeps them coming together long after the sense of emergency has passed. A political movement that doesn’t seek political office but maintains a strong voice in defense of equality and humanism in both “good” times (and I use the term very loosely) and in bad.

In the here and now however its clear that we require a system of administration that is fundamentally not about “power” at all but management and as such it must contain a sophisticated system of checks and balances to avoid the abuses that went by to nods and winks for so many years, abuses which ultimately undid us so completely.

Moreover, our deeply classist, extortionist and politicised judicial system needs radical overhaul and this should be the ultimate objective of any reforming movement with social justice at its heart.

Tús maith, leath na h-oibre

Brilliant start Oliver – things can only get better. The following letter to Irish Times is my minor contribution
Madam,

The arrival of the IMF / ECB officials could mean that Ireland’s future has taken a turn for the better. Our fate has been taken over by people who are not influenced by nor have any interest in parish pump politics. This provides us with a golden opportunity to rid the country of gombeen politicians, corrupt bankers and the cabal of legal and financial experts put forward to defend the indefensible. This elitist group has brought the country to it’s knees and has to be called to account. A general election is inevitable and the three main parties have little to offer except more of the same.
What Ireland needs is consensus to reform the political and constitutional establishments of the state. This, of course, requires referenda and as turkeys don’t vote for Christmas we need non-party aligned people to achieve any sort of reform.
I’m sure it’s possible to find 84 like minded people with a common interest in the future of our country. These individuals without any party allegiance would stand for election to Dail Eireann. Their sole mandate would be to offer the citizens of Ireland an opportunity to a new beginning. They should have no difficulty in getting elected given the mess we’ve been left with. With their majority the task of serious reform could begin in earnest.
I’m probably plagiarising the aspirations of Oliver Moran’s Second Republic movement which is a brilliant start and deserves all the support it can get. See http://www.2nd-republic.ie for further information.

I’m interested to learn the way the group plans to progress. Will it set some particular goals; how will these be set?

I think this needs to be moved on fast while the wound of IMF etc is still sore and fresh.

Hi all, a great idea Oliver and I agree with everyone here that all the different groups advocating reform need to get in contact and work together. In order to do that, however, it’s important not to advocate specific policies that will alienate people. The key is to pose the right questions on issues that everyone can agree are important, but let the answers emerge through consensus.
With that in mind, I would suggest that a number of things are needed:
1) To define the questions that need to be answered, e.g. What is the best way to organise the executive and the legislative branches? Do we need a President? Can we reform the Seanad to make it effective? How many TDs should we have per citizen? What is the most effective way to divide power between local government and national government? What is the most efficient voting system? Should we have a provision for direct democracy? etc.
2) To solicit contributions from leading experts on each of these questions, e.g. professors of political science who can knowledgeably explain how our current system functions, how democratic systems function in other countries, with suggestions for how we can reform our institutions.
3) To set up a website in which these issues are broken into separate forums. Each forum would have some knowledgeable articles by experts to focus discussion, and then a community forum in which people could discuss the ideas presented and put forward their own alternatives. The forum can be monitored to show which ideas are gaining consensus. The existence of the website can be supplemented by public meetings, social networking sites, and ideally media coverage.
4) If consensus is achieved in a majority of areas, then a draft of an alternative constitution can be written and put before the public, legal experts, etc. for revision, more discussion, more revision but with the clear goal of putting it before the people for a referendum.
It would be a long, slow, frustrating process, but that would be a positive change from the long. slow, frustrating, and utterly hopeless process of watching the country regress to the 19th century.
If you all agree, then the first task would be to define the right questions we need to answer in order to build better political insititutions. I look forward to hearing your ideas!

Are you aware of another group/movement of similarly minded who met in the RDS a few weeks ago: http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/

This seems to be the usual alignment of left-wing and Catholic religious groups with very specific views about how to fix Ireland – all of which point to tax increases. Maybe you’re for that, maybe against it, but why define the Second Republic so narrowly? (Incidentally, among their constituent groups are “Social Justice Ireland” which is headed by Sean Healy. That’s Sean Healy of CORI – the crowd whom the leaders of the “First Republic” indemnified for billions against child sex abuse compensation.).

The point of a second Republic is to be neither right nor left. Neither Catholic, Protestant, Dissenter nor atheist. This “2nd Republic” group is a threat to the vested interests of the 1st. Those vested interests include the trade unions and the Catholic church. If you define your selves in terms like “claimingourfuture” do, then you are only supporting the application of lipstick to a pig. A genuine 2nd republic leaves social and fiscal decisions to whoever is elected at any time. We should not try to straitjacket future generations to the ideologies of today. Instead, it should seek to fix the corruptions of the 1st Republic. We need to remove much of the clientelism of the current system, by reducing the number of TDs to between 80 and 100; by reforming the senate; by building a political infrastructure that is transparent and accountable to the electorate.

The 2nd Republic should allow those with very different views on social and fiscal policy to exist together by allowing them to rally around high level objectives to fix the political system that has failed us so badly.

Beware – the more successful this group is, the more you will be attacked. You’ll be painted as Tea Partiers or Communists or anti-Catholics. It doesn’t matter if it’s true, but the vested interests of the first Republic have no intention of handing over the keys to the castle.

I would advocate not to create a traditional political party, or you’ll go the same way as the Greens and the PDs – only relevant when politically useful. I would advocate that you become a pressure group for real constitutional reform to create a new Republic. You can organise to support candidates of any party as long as they support the type of reformation that they would normally balk at. You only have to look at the TDs and county councillors across ALL parties to see that they have no intention of reforming a system if it could cost them their cozy seats.

I would be very interested to see how the ideas of the group evolve, but I would caution against being the new PDs or New Labour.

Agreed. The very idea of forming a new political party should be anathema to a non-aligned group like Second Republic. This is not to say that sufficient pressure should not be brought to bear to annihilate Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee as the major players. If that could be achieved, new political actors worthy of a Second Republic would surely come forward.
I would also agree with those contributors who favor adding Philosophy and Civics to the school curriculum. At the very least, such a move could not harm the development of a sense of ownership.
When I was in secondary school in the 1970s, we had Civics on the curriculum one year. Our parents duly bought the textbook which was opened for maybe two classes and never saw the light of day again. The teacher would tell us to do our other homework during our Civics class. This happened in a Dublin school which at the time counted three government ministers among its alumni. A connection???

Agreed!

Agreed

Can I first congratulate Oliver Moran for taking the necessary initiative to set something like this up; it’s nice to see that there are other people out there who aren’t just content to complain about the situation but would like to take an active role in making things better.

I’m sure that, like many of you, this present crisis has led me to ask questions about how we have found ourselves in this situation, and more importantly, what we can do to ameliorate it and ensure that it never happens again. The idea of change in the political system, on a more fundamental level than merely having a general election, is one which has become more prevalent in recent months. We need, I’m sure many of you would agree, a system in which the ideals of civic responsibility, statesmanship, and governing in the national interest are encouraged ahead of clientelism, and parochialism. There are many ways in which this can be achieved, but root and branch reform of the political system, as well as an introduction into our education system of philosophy and civic political education (the current CSPE syllabus is a poor excuse for this) are the most obvious, but how is this to be done? It is exactly a forum like this where this should be discussed.

It is interesting that the nascent movement is called the Second Republic, as it implies more than just a desire to change merely the political system. I think this is the appropriate time for a period of self-reflection too. What does it mean to be Irish? For what do we want this ‘Second Republic’ to stand? What do we, as a nation, want from our government and institutions? A constitution is supposed to be, amongst other things, a treatise on the most fundamental beliefs, aims, and aspirations of a nation; do we feel that our current Constitution reflects these accurately? I, for one, feel that this is an issue which should at least be discussed at this time.

So where do we go from here? I’m sure Oliver Moran and every other contributor to the site thus far has a vision or idea about this, so I’ll just air my own briefly. I am currently a student in Trinity, and I have been discussing with friends more and more recently the need for active involvement on the part of students in the future of this country, particularly as ultimately it will be we who inherit whatever the fruits of this current crisis are. To this end, we have been thinking about trying to run a Youth Conference on the Future of the Irish Republic. To this would be invited members of the youth branches of the current political parties (fringe and mainstream) who undoubtedly are individuals committed to civic society with valuable opinions to air, and members of important groups in society (such as the Saint Vincent de Paul Society, IBEC, the unions, the Simon Community etc.). The aim would be to try to get representatives of all of the stakeholders in our society together, without petty political bickering (although I may be naive in thinking that this can happen!), to discuss the wider issues of what we want for Ireland, and how we get there. I think something of a similar format, run either separately or in conjunction with the youth conference, would be a useful starting point for this group. I feel that it is important that all the stakeholders in society are involved in contributing to whatever vision of Ireland emerges. Consensus will probably be impossible, but all views are important; it is, after all, everyone’s country. Constitutional and political reform can only follow from a sustained popular drive towards them, and thus they must also represent popular views.

That’s my two cents; apologies for the length, but it is a subject about which I am passionate!

It’s very heartening to see some passion for this among the young. I recall that the students of France in 1968 in partnership with unions/workers brought their country to a standstill. The government conceded defeat & asked the protest leaders what they wanted. Sadly, they really only knew what they didn’t want, not what they +did+. The opportunity was lost, & authorities have got much smarter since in preventing any recurrence. You won’t find much, if anything, of what you need to know in mainstream media. Ultimately it is your generation that must not only help to bring change – real radical change, nothing less will do – but also to ensure that what is achieved is passed on to the next & importantly, why.

Do be aware that all the current major political parties are the problem. Wittingly or unwittingly they are now merely the PR department of real power. Generally, all so-called ‘democracies’ aren’t in any meaningful sense of will-of-the-people. Over my life I have witnessed the main political parties of most countries merge into the ‘centre’. No left/right or other differences beyond those manufactured by a corporate media themselves part of the power structure of elite’s wealth, which simply serves funnel them more wealth to the detriment of all else, people, environment the lot.
What we are living thru’ now is a rare moment of much greater transparency of how the world is truly structured, who it serves. It doesn’t have to be this way, but true democracy won’t be gifted to us. 2nd republic is but one step toward demanding & achieving our true rights as human beings not mere ‘numbers’ to be manipulated by economics for the benefit of the few.
Reject the tired dogma of ‘no choice’. Look to the ignored & marginalised work of truly intelligent, caring people to inform yourselves & bring on the energy of youth!

Something to start with…how about a directly elected head of government. We use the “British system” of electing a party(s) to power and letting the parties decide (albeit normally the leader of said political party) who becomes head of government. The fact that we got landed with Bertie Ahern, Michael Noonan and CJH should have us as a nation scrambling for electoral reform. It hasn’t. The form of PR we use to elect our officials leaves the country held to ransom by gombeens like Jackie Healy-Rae, self-serving idiots with a quest for power. The opposition parties are worse than useless, they should have cleaned out the current government 12 months ago as the crisis took over, but yet the support for the opposition parties is still way down.

I too want to associated with a call for honesty & integrity to be the hallmark of those who offer to represent my intrests as a citizen of this republic. I believe that we who believe in the need for honesty & integrity in Irelands political institutions are very much in the majority and that this final act by the present regime is the final straw that can ignite a movement such as this. I look forward to seeing the list of names, of those who commit their support to this ideal, growing larger by the day and including many of our dispora scattered throughout the world.

Can I suggest that you register 2ndrepublic.ie as people will not find your site with the dash in this URL.

Please confirm that you are not that nincumpoop down in Wexford who wants a utopia of Parish Pumps and instead that you are wanting to promote a much smaller government, incorporating a “list” system of election to higher office.

I can confirm that that is not me. My personal views are similar to what you have outlined above but I don’t this to be about personal views (mine or anybody else’s). Ultimately, I’d prefer the outcome of reform to be decided by the public so that the people of this state can take back a sense of ownership of it, rather than it be directed by any one person or group of people.

I think one possible way to get the whole train moving, is to work on the lines I suggested in a letter printed in the Independent a week ago. Namely encourage RTE and and other media to run a “National Way Forward Day”. On that day or indeed the preceeding week give massive coverage to the various options and then on the day in question, vote on them by the Text Message system. There could be up to twenty options given. The preferred options of the rspondants could then be used to pre general election pressurise the parties and candidates, because the only way forward is by having changes to the constitution and that can only be initiated via the existing Dail / Senate system. A proportion of the texting cost could be clawed back from the phone companies to provide a fighting fund for the preferred objectives.

Hi Oliver,
Great idea and equally great letter in The Irish Times today. I agree with Maeve Moran and the other letter she referred to regarding a peaceful demonstration outside Dail Eireann and also to unite like-minded groups/people. It’s time to stand up for our Country and show the World that, as Tim Pat Coogan wrote in ‘Wherever The Green Is Worn’, “We are essentially a good People”.

Also, I love the ‘real names only’ policy. The hurlers on the ditch can enjoy their pseudonymous verbal jousting on the political forums.
Real people with real names can take to the streets and demand real change

Absolutely!

Hi Oliver,
Your idea for a non-aligned movement for political reform is excellent, and taps into what many are thinking – the self-interest and cronyism at the heart of our current crisis is a natural byproduct of the system of governance enshrined in our constitution. We need to cut off Hydra’s original head, the 1937 Constitution, if we are to reform PR-STV in multi-seat constituencies, and investment of executive power in the hands of the cabinet, two key elements that have created the self-serving mediocracy that has destroyed our country.
Also, thinking’s good, but acting’s better. What can we do? Take to the streets with our pots and pans, Icelandic-style?
http://www.facebook.com/#!/home.php?sk=group_130143103707302&notif_t=group_activity

Oliver,
Great idea. I concur with trying to liaise/unite with other similar websites/initiatives. I saw your letter on the irish times extended letters section. It is clear that there is a strong emerging national desire to be heard / listened to in some fashion by anyone with senior decision making capacity. I agree action as well as discussion is required. There was another letter in the letters section calling for a peaceful demonstration outside dail eireann.
I would welcome a call to action for any irish person interested in

1. demanding a general election
2. support given to those politicians who agree to radical political reform and a banning of any politicians in power 2003-2007 from holding public office again , similarly those in financial regulatory positions.

Perhaps a demonstration (peaceful) outside aras an uachtarain??

Maeve Moran

I add my encouragement to Oliver Moran and others of the same outloook. Resistance from embedded interests will be immense but the process of change to the 2nd republic has to be sustained over a long period of years. It will also be an evolving concept. The stated non-alignment of this movement will facilitate this. The present political powers must not be allowed to strategically ride out the storm of disaster emanating, to a large degree, from their failure.

Sign me up.
Briefly, and quickly, while I’m here there are just a couple of things I would like to add.
 The need for political and institutional reform is obvious, but we also need a reform of the Irish mindset. We have produced a nation of ostrich-sheep; a nation of denialists, fantasists and followers; a nation that is not a society. A nation that idolises shills, stroke-pullers, liars and gombeen men. A people that can’t really think for themselves. Maybe an education system that teaches Philosophy and Civics and encourages people to question and think would be a start?
 Also, a number of initiatives similar to this have germinated over the last year. Strength in numbers is always beneficial. Maybe gathering all these initiatives under a single umbrella body would provide momentum?

Agree with you that an education featuring the Classics, and the statecraft they invoke, is important and completely overlooked.

I wonder if Ireland see’s itself as a group of regions, rather than a country? Not that there is anything wrong with a sense of locality – it reminds us that community is something which still exists.

Great post. Totally agree with you. First and foremost introduce a new educational system then add philosophy and Debating to every syllabus, for a start. We need to start completely afresh and fight with our wallets too. We need to stop giving banks our business. Start with society as Brian mentioned and FORGET about economy… Watch South Parks episode on “The Economy”, it has forsaken us LOL. Let Ireland be finally united for once, to kick the financial elite from over our heads.

Hi Jack, i couldnt agree with your comments more, we need to change before any real change comes, how long will that take?

I agree with your latter point , I suggest a brief Forum for a New Ireland , not government sponsored one , but a people sponsored one , lets see what kind of potential parties and ideologies might emerge , real politics , left right debate and less economy and more society. Then we clean out the stables , we create a second republic only in the sense that we create a new reflective constitution.

I believe there is a widespread unease about our political institutions and while many are calling for reform, the potential reformers are the very people who have perverted the State for their own ends, and I cannot see them making even the slightest change to the status quo.

We have to do something and perhaps Oliver Moran has planted a sturdy little acorn.

Great idea, a new Republic and a proper one this time around instead of the one-party incestuous sham since 1936.

I’m not sure about the title 2nd Republic, as I don’t think we have ever had a true republic. I fully endorse the ideas of this site though, in the hope that we can create a true republic out of this mess, with equality at its heart.

Snap! Saw your post on politicalreform.ie. Best of luck with it. Your name isn’t Declan Ganley is it?

I suggest first and foremost that you make your identity clear and obvious from every page on this site – if we want transparent governance, we must lead by example.

Ciaráin, sound advice. I’ve just added a brief profile page about myself.